U.S. Presidential Election a Choice Between "the lesser evil": Pope Francis

CBS News reporter Anna Matranga asked Francis what advice he would give to an American voter who has to decide between a candidate “who is in favor of abortion and another who wants to deport millions of migrants.”

Pope Francis replied: “Both are anti-life — both the one who throws out migrants and the one who kills babies — both of them are against life.”

Harris, a Democrat who has made abortion without legal restrictions the centerpiece of her presidential campaign, and Trump, who has called for the deportations of perhaps millions of immigrants who have entered the U.S. illegally in recent years, are locked in a tight contest with just 52 days to go before the Nov. 5 election.

The Holy Father’s remarks about “the lesser evil” refers to the Church’s long-standing teaching that when faced with a choice between candidates who aren’t wholly aligned with the Church’s position on fundamental “nonnegotiable” issues — such as the sanctity of life, marriage, and religious freedom — it is permissible to cast a vote against the candidate who would do the most harm.

Abortion is ‘murder’

The pope went on to say that the science supports that life begins at conception, adding that although people may not like to use the word “kill” when discussing the topic, abortion is “murder.”

“To have an abortion is to kill a human being,” Francis said.

“The Church does not allow abortion because it is to kill, it is murder,” he added. “It is murder. And this we have to be clear about.”

In their updated voters guide, the U.S. bishops state: “The threat of abortion remains our preeminent priority because it directly attacks our most vulnerable and voiceless brothers and sisters and destroys more than a million lives per year in our country alone.”

Pope Francis also spoke strongly about the topic of immigration, recalling his visit to Mexico’s border with the United States where he offered Mass near the Diocese of El Paso, saying that “to send migrants away” or to not give them welcome is “sinful.”

“Sending migrants away, not letting them develop, not letting them have life, is a bad and nasty thing. Sending a baby away from its mother’s breast is a murder because there is life. On these things, we must speak plainly,” he said.

The pope’s comments come three days after the first presidential debate between Trump and Harris in which both abortion and migration were significant topics of debate. The U.S. debate occurred as Pope Francis was nearly 10,000 miles away visiting the island nations of East Timor, Papua New Guinea, Indonesia, and Singapore Sept. 2–13.

During the 45-minute in-flight press conference — which was briefly interrupted by strong turbulence on the papal plane — Pope Francis also responded to questions about clerical sex abuse, Vatican-China dialogue, the war in Gaza, the death penalty, and his upcoming travel plans.

Abuse is ‘something demonic’

While Pope Francis was not asked about Rupnik during the in-flight press conference, the pope did speak at length about clerical sex abuse in response to a question from a French journalist about another recent clerical abuse scandal — that of Abbé Pierre, a Catholic priest and Capuchin friar who died in 2007 and was one of the Church of France’s most beloved and iconic figures.

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The late founder of the Emmaus Movement in France has been accused of sexual abuse and misconduct by at least seven victims — including one who was a minor at the time of her alleged assault. Like East Timor’s Bishop Carlos Ximenes Belo, the island country’s independence hero and Nobel Peace prize winner who has been sanctioned by the Vatican for sexually abusing young boys, Abbé Pierre was looked up to in his country. Pierre was part of the French Resistance in World War II and is remembered for helping Jews cross the French border into Switzerland.

Simon Leplatre, a journalist from Le Monde, asked Pope Francis what he would say “to the general population who find it hard to believe that a person who did so much [many] good deeds could also commit crimes,” referencing both Belo and Abbé Pierre.

In his reply, the pope said that the question “touched a very painful and very delicate point,” adding that public sins are to be condemned, including “all kinds of abuse.”

“Abuse is, in my judgment, something demonic,” Pope Francis said. “Because every type of abuse destroys the dignity of the person. Every type of abuse seeks to destroy that which all of us are, the image of God.”

During the pope’s response, the papal plane was hit by strong turbulence, causing the captain of the aircraft to interrupt the press conference with a safety announcement.

“Your question caused turbulence!” Pope Francis remarked. “To conclude, the sexual abuse of children, of minors, is a crime. It is a shame.”

Journalists who did not get the opportunity to ask a question during the in-flight press conference told CNA that they would have liked to confront the pope about Rupnik and other Catholics in positions of influence who have been accused of serious sexual offenses, including Luis Fernando Figari, the founder of the Sodalitium Vitae Christianae.

The pope responded to questions from 10 journalists — representing the countries visited and the different languages spoken in the press corps: Italian, Spanish, French, German, and English. Each language representative could only ask one question, and the English-speaking journalist chose to ask about the U.S. presidential election. In addition, a journalist from a Chinese-owned news outlet was allowed to ask the pope about the Holy See’s dialogue with the Chinese government.

Vatican-China dialogue

In response to the question of whether the pope was satisfied with the results of the Holy See’s provisional agreement with Beijing so far, Pope Francis said that in his view the results are good and there is goodwill in working on the appointment of bishops.

“I am happy with the dialogue with China,” Francis said. “I have heard how things are going from the secretary of state, and I am happy.”

Pope Francis expressed his admiration for China’s long history and reaffirmed his strong desire to visit the country.

“China is a promise and a hope for the Church,” the pope said.

The pope’s comments on China come as the Vatican-China deal, first signed in 2018, is up for another two-year renewal at the end of this month.

The Vatican’s dialogue with China has not always been smooth. The Vatican has admitted that China violated the terms of its provisional agreement on the consensual appointment of Catholic bishops in China via a joint China-Vatican commission by unilaterally appointing Catholic bishops in Shanghai and the “diocese of Jiangxi,” a large diocese created by the Chinese government that is not recognized by the Vatican.

Human rights advocates have raised concerns over the Vatican’s silence during the years of dialogue on the Chinese Communist Party’s religious freedom violations, including the internment of Uyghur Muslims, and the imprisonment of democracy advocates, including Catholic Jimmy Lai, in Hong Kong.

Last month, the Chinese government officially recognized a formerly “underground” bishop in China, 95-year-old Bishop Melchior Shi Hongzhen, something the Vatican called “a positive fruit of the dialogue” with Beijing.

‘Every day I call Gaza’

The press conference during the pope’s 12-hour return flight to Rome was the first papal press conference since the start of the war in Gaza nearly one year ago. Responding to a question about the recent Israeli strike on a Gaza school that killed 18 people, including two staff members of the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees, the pope offered an assurance that “the Holy See is working.”

“Every day I call Gaza, the parish in Gaza,” Pope Francis revealed. “In the parish in the college there are 600 people, Christians and Muslims. They live as brothers. They tell me bad things, difficult things.”

Lamenting the “bodies of killed children” in Gaza, the pope repeated his oft-repeated phrase that “war is always a defeat” even for the winner. The pope added that he was grateful for the King of Jordan Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein, lauding him for “trying to make peace.”

Desire to visit Canary Islands

Pope Francis, who will turn 88 in December and frequently uses a wheelchair, appeared energetic and smiled often as he responded to journalists’ questions aboard the plane. On the final day of the longest and one of the most arduous international trips of his pontificate, the 87-year-old pope was already ready to discuss future travels.

Pope Francis revealed that he is thinking of visiting the Canary Islands, an autonomous Spanish archipelago off the coast of northwestern Africa, especially because of its migrant population. The pope was asked to visit the Canary Islands by the Canary Islands’ President Fernando Clavijo in an audience at the Vatican in January.

The pope definitively ruled out the possibility of visiting France for the reopening of the Notre Dame cathedral on Dec. 8. The cathedral is set to reopen on the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, a feast that the pope traditionally always celebrates with the city of Rome in the piazza at the foot of the Spanish Steps.

Pope Francis was less decisive about the possibility of a long-awaited trip to his native Argentina. He told Argentine journalist Elisabetta Pique that he would like to go to Argentina but “it is still not decided” because “there are a number of things to resolve first.”

Longest journey of his pontificate

Amid much skepticism as to how the elderly pope would be able to handle the ambitious international trip, Pope Francis completed his longest journey yet, flying a staggering 20,000 miles in total on seven flights to visit four countries in Southeast Asia and Oceania.

On his final return flight to Rome, the pope slowly made his way down the aisle of the aircraft using a walking cane before being assisted to sit down on a small folding chair from which he thanked the journalists for accompanying him on the long journey.

Pope Francis said that he was impressed by the art and the traditional dances he encountered in Papua New Guinea and the skyscrapers and apparent lack of discrimination in the multicultural city-state of Singapore. The pope added that Singapore will soon host the Formula One Singapore Grand Prix, which he said is a testament to how the city is an international destination that attracts different cultures.

As he spoke about his journey, it was clear that East Timor, a small, impoverished country established in 2002, made a strong impression on the pope. An estimated 600,000 people turned out for the papal Mass in East Timor — nearly half of the population of the island country that is 98% Catholic.

Pope Francis praised East Timor’s “culture of life,” commending the country’s high birth rate and adding that wealthier countries, including Singapore, could learn from the small country that “children are the future.”

“East Timor is a simple culture, very family-based, happy, a culture of life with many children,” he said. The pope underlined that he hopes this aspect of Timorese culture can be protected from “ideas that come from outside,” which can be like the saltwater crocodiles that have overrun some of the young country’s pristine coral-reef beaches.

“Let me tell you one thing,” Pope Francis added. “I fell in love with East Timor.”